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Movie Ballot Temple and the BBA


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#21 Amberson

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:37 AM

But hiding the results wouldn't actually kill the efficiency studio voting can have.
On the contrary, it would make it harder to know for a member of a non-collaborational-studio if he/she would have to step it up, doing more ballots trying to vote for him/herself because he/she would actually have a chance to end high...


Speaking for myself here, but I think it can be applied universally with experienced and/or "artistic" players... I usually know when I have made an "above average" cover. It tends to be the one that I myself happen to like a lot. At this point, I think I also have enough experience to know what works with people... I can actually feel the high potential as soon as I think of the idea. And when I'm satisfied with the concrete realization of that idea, I know I have a very good chance of being in the run for the top spots. For example, I knew my last week’s entry, despite the effort and creativity put in, was only a Top 100 finisher before the voting even started. And I actually said so in the studio chat. However, I felt really good about the one before that which was the one that eventually finished 2nd. Even one of my studio mates called it a "winning cover" right away. I actually thought it had the potential but still wouldn’t win and I was right about that too. Having this type of vague intuition and familiarity with the taste of the voters + the bigger motivation you have to see something that you’re proud of succeeding allows you to step up your effort in the right time even if the preliminary results stay hidden. Not that the voting effort makes much of a difference, as I've already said earlier...

Edited by Amberson, 11 July 2018 - 10:44 AM.


#22 CaptC

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:24 PM

 

This is leaning more to the "Fix BBA" than the "New Temple Ideas" thread by the way.

 

I know. I was looking for a place to cut the thread in two.  The problem is that the conversation just kept growing in an intertwined fashion. So what I am going to do is change the title of this note to "Movie Ballot Temple and the BBA".

 

I will post a new note base topic, and ask for more new Temple ideas there.


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#23 EricTion

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 13:21 PM

Well, at least the rankings should be hidden and no chance to vote your own / your studio's film. And that should be case in the BBA already. Look at this week's (week 27/18) rankings. All the top films from the same studio, so that must be with bought votes. In which real life voting you can legally buy votes for yourself / your teammates? So, a major change is needed...



#24 CaptC

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 19:51 PM

A couple of false assumptions, Eriction.  

  • The results you see does not have be the result of bought votes. My studio tends to dominate on UK1, and we aren't buying anything. We DO have a studio policy that you should vote for your teammates, and that you should announce in chat that you have done so. As a result, many of us go out of our way to take movie ballots, because it gets a public "attaboy!", it helps a teammate and thus the entire studio, and not to mention, we make sure everyone knows it is very profitable to vote.  (Getting a skill on a movie ballot is worth 625K notes to me at the moment.) We aren't spending money, but we DO have studio policies that generate a lot of votes, and of COURSE we are going to vote for a teammate who is also voting for us.

    (Yes, yes, I know what is next: "So get rid of the studio member tag so people don't know there is a teammate on the ballot!" Same answer I have given before: "That won't change my vote, it will just make me work harder to recognize teammate's covers, and when there WERE no teammate notifications, players demanded they be added for simple convenience.") 
     
  • I would argue that many parts of the world, in real life, let you buy votes -- so your analogy is suspect anyway. But I shouldn't even have to note that this ain't real life, either. (I would never be mistaken for a porn star in real life.)

If your studio can't compete against studios that have team-oriented players supporting each other in the BBA, well... I don't think that is the fault of the BBA.


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#25 Amberson

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:25 AM

If your studio can’t compete against studios that have team-oriented players supporting each other in the BBA, well... I don’t think that is the fault of the BBA.


It is the fault of a badly set voting mechanism.

Yes, yes, I know what is next: "So get rid of the studio member tag so people don't know there is a teammate on the ballot!" Same answer I have given before: "That won't change my vote, it will just make me work harder to recognize teammate's covers, and when there WERE no teammate notifications, players demanded they be added for simple convenience."


While this is true, and I always acknowledged it when writing about this topic, shouldn’t the point be to precisely make it harder for the dominating players/studios to keep on dominating?

I’ve proposed various measures how to prevent such domination within the BBAs and at least to try to limit it a bit. Getting rid of the notification was one such suggestion. It might be true that there was a demand for this option once, but I don’t know how big of a demand it was and from whom. Maybe it was only from those people from the very top studios on each server who are now reaping the benefits from it... Maybe not. All I know is that in the meantime I also heard a strong opposition to that feature on this very forum before I even founded a special thread about how to improve the BBAs and included it among the various offered suggestions. There was also a strong vocal opposition to that, mostly from you and Analis - the bosses of the dominating studios that are arguably getting the most of this feature.

Anyway, I offered also other suggestions, some of them potentially way more effective than getting rid of the studio notification text. Like expanding the number of covers that are staying in the run by the end of the week to as many as 200... or to not make any cuts at all... The point of this measure was to reduce the chances of being able to vote for your own or studio-affiliated cover... or to to sway the vote through diamonds. In this thread, I recently proposed to keep the results hidden until the end of the vote to prevent targeted voting/downvoting. Any and all of these and other measures applied either on their own or together would make it harder for the dominating to enjoy their current hegemony. And on some level, you’re probably acknowledging this possible effect. Why else would you not want to keep the results hidden for longer than Wednesday, if not to be able to have power over the vote?

I can understand a studio being proud that they are able to overtake the whole Top 10 even before the start of the weekend. On UK2, another studio was once able to achieve this only thanks to the extra exposure provided by the then freshly introduced film trophies. And everybody hated it, including the players who are now able to achieve the same thing even without the extra exposure. I’m sure many people are now dissatisfied with the current state of things too... and you actually see some of those voices starting to appear here. It’s good that the Top 10 covers all follow a common theme this week on UK2. It makes it all the more obvious even to people who normally might have not noticed the lopsidedness. A fallout needs to happen and something needs to change like it did with the extra exposure from film trophies, if the devs want the players to continue being interested in and enjoying their product.

I admit that within this insignificant little game, studious like Bros and Hoes or your own studios, Cap, have achieved something remarkable. And I'm aware that getting those fine-tuned machines off the ground was quite hard. Many others tried and failed. That is why I respect you and Analis for your achievements. However, once the behemoths gets into motion, it keeps on going through snowballing there’s no stopping it. The behemoth gets the best rewards and most skill points every week in the Temple, the BBAs and from a stack full of trophies. If the core members keep on playing and they don’t fall into some kind of argument, recruiting is relatively easy in comparison to other studios, because you have everything to offer. Thus you gradually take away many of the strongest, most active and perhaps even richest players from all the other studios. That makes you even more dominating, which in turn attracts more top players. Those who don’t want join the party for various reasons eventually get tired of losing and leave the game altogether with their former studios dissolving.

Thus you end up in a situation where nobody, including the second best studio, dares or bothers to attack the first studio, although they are heavily penalized by their permanent stack of trophies. You tried before and know you’re going to lose regardless. In the past, they could stay safe only if they carried just one film trophy (together with the energy and courage ones), but they can now easily hold on to two or perhaps even three. But they don’t want the third one anyway, because it takes too much time to to do all the films every day. BBAs, which once used to be open for everyone to occasionally score a win with or a Top 3 finish with a nice cover, are now overrun by covers from the same studio on a weekly basis. Winning becomes more or less impossible. And Top 15 or so in the glory rankings now firmly consist of players from one studio, because all the best players in the game either quit or joined the No. 1 studio. This is basically what I saw happening during my time playing this game... Together with devs's obsession with constantly implementing features aimed at money spenders and their disinterest in what most people ask for (they couldn’t even add a proper set of new fonts and borders of different colors, when they finally did add something), it makes playing the game less enjoyable, because there's nowhere to progress and nothing to achieve or new to do after a while.

Edited by Amberson, 13 July 2018 - 09:37 AM.


#26 MelisaA

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:55 AM

This domination in BBA can stop only reducing chances of voting for your own studio covers. Or even to make that you can't vote for your own studio.

And why these trophies only feature of top studios, My studio never won or even not finished in top5 in BBA. Now dominating studios can easily win in BBA and can easily steal from weaker studios, that's unfair. Why not to make, that one trophy you can't lose.



#27 CaptC

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:01 PM

It is the fault of a badly set voting mechanism.

 

The nub of our debate.  I think it is the fault of people being people, no matter the voting mechanism.

 

I am ALWAYS going to find a way to vote for my studio mates. Full stop. Don't care what the mechanic is, if you show me the covers, I will find a way to recognize my teammates, and vote for them. I will still set studio policy to promote voting for your teammates. And I will still find it perfectly reasonable to do so.
 

Ain't no method of voting other than the game requiring me to vote fully blind, or by complete random chance, that is going to change that. "Fair" is MUCH less important than "Supporting your teammates".

 

As to snowballing game effects: I don't see a snowball here. I see consistent effort producing consistent results.

 

Snowballing is when the effects of winning is part of a positive feedback loop. Having a trophy of any sort turns into additional skills for your studio, that in turn means you get stronger and can hold more trophies. That's a positive feedback loop, and thus that's a snowball.

 

Winning one BBA does not, in fact, help you win more BBAs. Not a snowball.


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#28 Amberson

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:44 PM

I am ALWAYS going to find a way to vote for my studio mates. Full stop. Don't care what the mechanic is, if you show me the covers, I will find a way to recognize my teammates, and vote for them. I will still set studio policy to promote voting for your teammates. And I will still find it perfectly reasonable to do so.

 
That’s alright. I already said the point is to make it harder for you (the dominating) to accomplish your goal and thus giving more of chance to others (the non-dominating) to accomplish theirs.

Besides, voting mechanism can be set in many different ways. One of them can prohibit studio voting altogether as MelisaA suggested. You can’t say it’s unfair, because others won’t be able to vote for their teammates too. It will be equal footing for all with nobody being able to use the feature to their advantage.

ISnowballing is when the effects of winning is part of a positive feedback loop. Having a trophy of any sort turns into additional skills for your studio, that in turn means you get stronger and can hold more trophies. That's a positive feedback loop, and thus that's a snowball.
 
Winning one BBA does not, in fact, help you win more BBAs. Not a snowball.


It doesn’t but it helps your character to progress at a faster pace thanks to the rewards and that has a positive effect in other aspects of the game (including the ability to recruit new members who want to win and progress at an equal pace too). That’s the whole point (which constitutes the snowball) behind studios trying to overrun the BBAs, no? If there were no rewards, I doubt they would try so hard to get their teammates to the top. It might help to strengthen the team spirit and individual bonds between players if everyone still followed your practice of letting others know whenever they voted for someone, but apart from that it would be a pretty ineffective way of using your energy and time in a game that’s very demanding on both of those things.

Also, I was talking about all of the snowballing that’s going on in this game, not just in regard to the BBAs. My last comment was no longer simply about BBA dominance but about the topic of growing dominance by a single studio in general and the inability of others to keep up or fight back due to the snowballing.

#29 CaptC

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 14:24 PM

 
That’s alright. I already said the point is to make it harder for you (the dominating) to accomplish your goal and thus giving more of chance to others (the non-dominating) to accomplish theirs.

 

Ignores history. It USED to be that way. Players want to vote for teammates, and they don't like the game putting obstacles in their way. Make it difficult to vote for teammates, and we will start hearing a regular chorus of suggestions that we change it back.
 

 
Also, I was talking about all of the snowballing that’s going on in this game, not just in regard to the BBAs. My last comment was no longer simply about BBA dominance but about the topic of growing dominance by a single studio in general and the inability of others to keep up or fight back due to the snowballing.

 

Again, game mechanics will not ever completely solve that problem. It's also just people being people. Like-minded, competitive people will tend to find each other, and cooperate against other groups. Almost all social media games have this problem. Dominance is counteracted only by sufficient other number of competitive players to form actually competitive groups, modified by factors of leadership and the game's inherent appeal.

Where there are actual snowballing mechanics, positive feedback loops, I completely agree with you, Amberson. And giving advantages to those who are behind, to break the effect of the snowball, is something I actually look for.

But when the mechanics actually do not snowball, I think consistent, continuous effort should be rewarded. Simple as that.


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#30 Amberson

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 15:46 PM

Ignores history. It USED to be that way. Players want to vote for teammates, and they don't like the game putting obstacles in their way. Make it difficult to vote for teammates, and we will start hearing a regular chorus of suggestions that we change it back.


Ignores the new situation and experience gained in the meantime and makes unfounded assumptions. Players might have wanted to have the notification and once they saw how it works and what effects it has, they might have changed their opinion. Or maybe the original group of players who got their wish fulfilled are still satisfied, but a new group of previously neutral and/or silent players have now formed highly negative opinions on the matter and demand something else.

But my latest proposal didn’t restrict voting for teammates. What it proposed was to restrict what I call "targeted voting/downvoting" by making the preliminary results hidden until it’s over. One of my previous suggestions was more broader and restricted the probability of anyone being able to participate in studio voting in a too excessive manner that eventually leads to "targeted voting/downvoting". This could be accomplished by keeping more or all of the covers in the run throughout the whole week. If you combine the measures together, the effect should be even stronger and the desired result of more competitive BBAs more probable.

Again, game mechanics will not ever completely solve that problem. that.


It doesn’t need be solved completely. That would be admittedly difficult. There will never be complete equality neither in this game nor outside of it in real life because people are different, have different skills, different amount of resources at their disposal and different starting points in both their real and game life... If you start playing a year later then a different player, you will never be able to catch up with them if they keep on playing as active as you do. Thus they will be always stronger than you.

The point of the strive for "equality" is to minimize the effect of various individual or group differences that give someone advantage in comparison with others. And the point of all these suggestions is to make things more competitive, open and perhaps also fair for everyone. Not altogether, but more than it is now. Because so far, things are going in a complete opposite way...

Edited by Amberson, 13 July 2018 - 15:51 PM.

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#31 MelisaA

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 16:43 PM

I very much agree with Amberson, Nothing to do is not good. Even the average studio does not have a fair chance to participate in BBA. I every week losing a 1-2 members, but to find nem member even low level newbie is very hard. Of course, this is another topic why in BBE drastically decreasing new members. But if dev's do not help for average and casual studios, there will left 3 top studios with hundreds of abandoned studios. 



#32 Sera

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 07:55 AM

Just saying my opinion 

I think a voting temple look like a fun thing to do

Well the voting system might need some work as I see lots of same film in one day and that can be more than 10 vote cause I'm being boring and just doing it to hunt some nice cloth/diamond/energy 

And well not saying much but yea people will vote their own studio members (Their own film)

That can't be help you choose your own favorites film 

 

;)


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#33 Andrea6969

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 09:16 AM

How about taking the votes idea a step forward and making it a point for every vote for a movie from your studio.  That way you could form voting alliances for the temple and add an element of cross studio gameplay that doesn't exist right now. 

Would even probably work as a diamond sink for BBE.  Lots of refreshes and (with enough warning when the temple would be) lots of people spending on titles that reflect your studio so your allies in other studios can easily find those titles.

This Idea leads to nowhere but wasting diamonds.This week on UK2, almost all players of one studio set all their covers with a "...OPPER" title.

I assume they refreshed always until they got such a title to vote for, hoping to get all the top 25 ranks this way.

 

But they failed because members of other studios figured that out, could easily notice them as well and simply made it their mission to always vote AGAINST those "...OPPER" titles and if there were two of them, then refresh until there was a different title to vote for.

 

I favor to just remove the refresh option on the BBA voting or exclude votes for oneself (although I once got to vote for myself 5 times in one week even without refreshes and total voted about a dozen times for myself) and teammates and keep it a fair single-player competition.



#34 CaptC

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 11:07 AM

Let me be clear. I have submitted both the movie ballot temple, AND the proposal to keep the previous week's BBA standings visible until Wednesdays. I am in favor of both ideas. It is beyond my pay grade to speculate what happens next, if anything.


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#35 Amberson

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 12:26 PM

Could have submitted my original proposal too... As I have already said, your modified version only kept one of the proposal's intended purposes to bring more transparency in regard to previous week's results. But it doesn’t address the problem of powerful studios' influence on the vote... neither does it help to make the awards more competitive, open or fair.

I don’t know how things exactly work when it comes to mods passing along players' suggestions to devs... Maybe players themselves ought to address the devs with their suggestions and you doing it on their behalf is just something you voluntarily do to make it easier for us, not something you have to do as a mod. In that case thanks for your willingness and effort. Either way, I think you should stay impartial and not pass along only the suggestions that you're personally in favor of...

#36 CaptC

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 17:35 PM

All suggestions I submit reference the original topics. The developers will see your original proposal, Amberson.

 

I did not claim I had the best suggestion, I merely said that the discussion about the BBAs had an interesting discussion with several good ideas.


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#37 Analis

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 20:30 PM

This is an interesting topic, but responses have been a little subjective to say the least.

A large part of this discussion is actually just about one studio, at least on UK2.

So I'm not replying here to provoke anyone, but just because I have to.

Not replying as a game-mechanics-nut for a sec but mostly as a boss.

 

1 at least the rankings should be hidden

2 all the top films from the same studio

3 so that must be with bought votes

 

1 Agreed.

2 They mostly are. They just don't rhyme every week.

3 Nope. There are 30ish of us, all active and alive. That's enough already.

At least half of the studio takes every available ballot. The math is very simple.

If you would try and BUY votes from the beginning when there are still over 1.000 options... you'd be bankrupt by Tuesday.

So how we nailed those top spots from the beginning? Voting. A lot of it.

Just check the numbers of ballots done in our personal statistics.

Then compare those with yours, whoever you are.

 

 

And why these trophies only feature of top studios,

My studio never won or even not finished in top5 in BBA.

 

Your studio is 4 months older than mine, Mel.

Your guess is as good as mine. But trophies matter little in BBAs.

 

 

But they failed

 

14 members in the top 30.

All 3 of the top 3 covers were ours.

I wouldn't call that a bad week.

 

 

members of other studios figured that out,

could easily notice them as well

and simply made it their mission to always vote AGAINST

 

Surely we play on the same server.

We did not feel a holy crusade in-game, only in-here.

I don't like ANTI votes by the way, but do what you must.

 

Assumptions meeting facts though for a second:

our top 10 entries won with between only 129 and 145 votes.

The top entry usually has to win with well over 200 or even 250 votes.

There were 16 votes difference between 1st and 10th. That's not a landslide.

That means that this week actually had an extremely calm and close voting round.

 

 

I favor to just remove the refresh option on the BBA voting

 

I would mind that as little as I'd see sense in it.

But it's not a realistic suggestion anyway, so I don't see why it would need to be made.

 

 

or exclude votes for oneself

 

I'd be in full favor of removing the option to vote for yourself.

It would heavily improve the need for people to be friendly, social, nice in order to get votes.

It would encourage people within a studio to work together more than simply just tolerate one another.

It would encourage creativity, humour, teamwork, social behavior and player-to-player kindness.

It would give most studios a more vibrant public chat where members would actually show support for one another.

It would encourage people to be less of a single solitary player and try more to be a member of a community.

It would make people care less about getting that top 10 spot than feeling they were supported to get it.

It would give one of the most fun parts of this game the social aspect only thàt part of the game can deliver.

It would feel less like stroking your own ego than gètting it stroked by people who actually like you or your work.

I wouldn't see a single bad aspect in having the option removed to vote for yourself.

Having the option removed to vote for your friends though... that's just bs.

 

 


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#38 dparadise

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 20:36 PM

On the part of exclude voting yourself... Helluvan idea. It would surely improve bba's. 

 

Remove the recycle/rotate, won't happen, BBE loves to take the diamonds we earn and buy. 

 

Actually the gap between me and the #3 in the BBA was 1 vote. That show's how close things were at the top, and weren't superbly huge amount of votes either, I've had many more in the past.


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#39 Amberson

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 13:59 PM

So I was thinking about how to bolster the individual aspect in the BBAs while also keeping the team competition going on. And here’s a new idea... How about splitting the current competition into two separate races? The main race would be an individual one. It would be based upon quality and its aim would be to select the best and most popular covers. This could be achieved through the implementation of my previous suggestions... Though what would be arguably even more effective would be to ban studio voting altogether.

However, in order to promote team effort and motivate people to engage in voting as much as possible, a new separate race with its own prizes would be introduced. Winners of this competition would be determined based upon quantity in the form of their overall voting effort. The more voting missions you do throughout the week, the more points your studio gets. It would basically be a permanent second Temple with the aim of doing ballot missions. An added bonus to this would be the extra incentive for the hundreds of smaller studios with only a few members to band together into bigger units with full and active rosters.

Edited by Amberson, 27 July 2018 - 14:03 PM.

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