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#21 Amberson

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 17:19 PM

Eileen brought up a couple of different suggestions how to improve the BBAs, some of which I heard for the first time. Here I my thoughts on them...

If people don't have interest in filmmaking than why should they win? Also, keep in mind that even when you make the maximum amount of movies and put effort into your submitted cover, it can still flop from time to time because of bad luck. At the same time, many effortless junk type of covers that you described earlier somehow get enough votes to stay in the competition during the whole week. In some cases even if the player didn't complete all the weekly films... If activity isn't taken into consideration at all, than this type of situations would occur much more often, because the active people would get less exposure than they do know and the inactive more. The bigger exposure is giving the players who care about filmmaking and play the game a sort of protection against those who vote in a completely mindless and random manner. So I'm not in favor of this suggestion.

Removal of rankings during the week would have a positive effect in that it would prevent tactical voting. However, not knowing how you stand as the week progresses would also take all the excitement from the competition. You would just find out the result after it's all over and that would be it. That doesn't sound like much fun. But I like the suggestion more than the previous one.

I'm ok with the removal of "from your studio" notifications, even though I don't mind them as much as others. I said before that if studio members want to vote for each other, they can do it even without the recommendations.

Limiting the number of votes per player could have a significant decreasing effect on the total amount of casted votes and possibly also increase the influence of mindless voters. Those are my main concerns with such a move. But if somebody proves to me that it wouldn't be a problem, I wouldn't be against such a restriction.

In the end, I agree with CaptC that the only pressing issue concerning the BBAs that needs to be addressed at the moment is the disproportionate advantage provided by film trophies. The BBAs were fine, even if not perfect, before the trophies were introduced.

#22 Eileendover

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 18:13 PM

 


If people don't have interest in filmmaking than why should they win? Also, keep in mind that even when you make the maximum amount of movies and put effort into your submitted cover, it can still flop from time to time because of bad luck. At the same time, many effortless junk type of covers that you described earlier somehow get enough votes to stay in the competition during the whole week. In some cases even if the player didn't complete all the weekly films... If activity isn't taken into consideration at all, than this type of situations would occur much more often, because the active people would get less exposure than they do know and the inactive more. The bigger exposure is giving the players who care about filmmaking and play the game a sort of protection against those who vote in a completely mindless and random manner. So I'm not in favor of this suggestion.

 

I would agree if it really is a matter of interest. But if it's a time issue, like they are working and don't have the time for all of that, then I would ask why they should have decreased chance if they only had time for a couple of them. Those couple might be as good as anything else running. My main concern is people being discouraged when they do start to make an effort. 

 

In a previous life (star that has been deleted) I won it without even knowing it was a thing. I mean I didn't know there were titles or that they were sought after. I started getting messages saying what a great cover and that people had voted for me and asking if I had spent any time in Bangkok because my film title had that in it. I hadn't been checking the rankings. I was new and didn't figure I'd ever place high, let alone win so it was quite a nice surprise.

I do think most people would agree that the film trophies are having an effect other than intended and it should be addressed. Again, I suggest turning them to chocolate

 

I just had another player tell me in a studio chat that they've given up on BBA since the trophies have become a factor. That's a drag. I haven't given up but I do get grumbly from time to time


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#23 Amberson

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 21:30 PM

I would agree if it really is a matter of interest. But if it's a time issue, like they are working and don't have the time for all of that, then I would ask why they should have decreased chance if they only had time for a couple of them. Those couple might be as good as anything else running. My main concern is people being discouraged when they do start to make an effort.


But how do you distinguish between those who don't have enough time from those that don't have the interest? The change you suggested will just increase the possibility that the really active and passionate players will get screwed in the voting. At the same time the shitty covers from people that don't care about the BBAs will have a greater chance of getting votes and advancing to the later stages of the competition. Both of those things are quite discouraging.

It could be said that if you don't have time to play, then this game just isn't meant for you. However, there are ways to get around it to a degree. Play on mobile devices and take the shortest film shoots. The ones that last for 30 minutes can be done pretty quickly. If there isn't one in the offers, invest a few diamonds for the refresh. If you don't want to wait one hour between shoots, use diamonds to skip the waiting time. In both cases it's not so pricey that it couldn't be done even if you don't buy diamonds. If you do buy them, then the problem is solved. And if none of this works for you, then you unfortunately can't be competitive in the BBAs or even in the game as a whole. But it's the same in real live. You can't be successful in anything if you don't put the needed effort and time into it. The fact that you don't have the time because you have to spend it on different things is irrelevant.

The movie trophies are a bit different because they work more like a class privilege. If you don't have it, then you can put in all the time and effort you want and it still won't be enough, because the starting line from the beginning wasn't the same.

Edited by Amberson, 06 September 2017 - 21:42 PM.

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#24 Eileendover

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 22:42 PM

well, I hope at least the trophy situation can actually be resolved and not be just talk on the forum like many things people express concern about. I wonder if it would work to make their effect temporary and diminishing while it is there, penalty and bonus both


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#25 TaraBing

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 00:04 AM

There used to be more transparency in the BBA standings before it got overhauled to just one entry per week...

 

Prior to the change, the standings actually included the number of votes each entry got.

 

Instead of opting for just a results page at the end of the week... I would like to see MORE TRANSPARENCY in the standings, including stats for...

 

  • TIMES PRESENTED:  xxx
  • TIMES VOTED FOR:   xxx

 

Just a thought... ...  (smug)

 

-TB  (flower)

 

On a side note: I don't think removing the "This is from your studio" notation will change much of anything.  Players so seldom change their avatar's appearance, I'm starting to know who I am voting for (or suspect I am voting for) even when they aren't from my studio.


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#26 TaraBing

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 00:06 AM

Hmm... does that mean if a cover was presented but was REFRESHED it counts as presented but was not voted for?  ...  (smug)

 

I'm calling for EVEN MORE TRANSPARENCY...

 

  • TIMES PRESENTED:  xxx
  • TIMES VOTED FOR:   xxx
  • TIMES REFRESHED:  xxx

 

 

-TB  (flower)

 

.



#27 Analis

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:30 AM

  • TIMES PRESENTED:  xxx
  • TIMES VOTED FOR:   xxx
  • TIMES REFRESHED:  xxx 

 

I'd like that!

We checked the number of votes for our studio members one week, when there were over half of ours in the top 20.

Votes go up into the 100s when your cover gets so high, but it was fun seeing how small the differences were.

The differences between a no. 1 vs. 2 and a no. 15 vs. 16 were similar: 1 or 2 votes only.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I'd love to have a type of scoreboard for such things.

Numbers of votes, victories... instead of just a screen you click away after the monday reset.

 

As for the "chocolate" suggestion.

I don't think people should be rewarded for not participating.

As with people being punished for actually doing so.


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#28 Eileendover

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:20 AM

I won't speak anymore on behalf of people that don't do all of their films. If they agree, they can show up and chime in, if they care or.have the time ;) I do all of mine on all stars I play and bonus  ones when I have the opportunity. I normally do well, to a point; the point where the keeper of the dead shows up to tell me the way is shut.

 

'chocolate' was just another way of saying I'd like to see them gone, or changed to something better. Nothing to do with rewarding or punishing anyone. But I did forget to mention that I think the option to refresh should be removed. Thanks for the reminder. I don't believe the trophies work as they were intended. I think the large penalty was thought to be a way to ensure that they don't stay in one place very long. That's obviously not what is going on.

 

I change my look quite often. usually for some film cover idea


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#29 Amberson

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 13:19 PM

This week on UK2 only further illustrates what a farce the BBAs have become... I was aware that The Dirty Thirty are keeping two film trophies in their possession throughout the last week and was curios what kind of impact would it have on the voting. It's only Wednesday so things could naturally still change, but at the moment 8 out of 10 people in the Top 10 are from that studio. The other 2 are from Bros and Hoes.

I used to come up with my own titles every week that would fit with the theme I was going for, but I'm thinking of quitting that practice. I don't have that much diamonds most of the time and with the way things stand right now, it kinda seem like a waste. If the developers don't do something about the situation (are they even aware of it?), then it's probably better to spend the 19 diamonds on refinements instead of custom titles...

My next week's cover will already be pretty generic, even though I still invested a few diamonds at least for the background to make it fit better with the wardrobe of my star and the selected border. But after a long while, it won't feature my own title...

Edited by Amberson, 13 September 2017 - 13:29 PM.

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#30 Eileendover

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 14:56 PM

Discouraging for sure Amber.  It's like a different ceiling if your star isn't in a trophy holding studio. I will probably always do custom titles where I can, but what happened this week on one of my stars (documented in another post) certainly gives merit to sticking with the silly game-generated titles. Not going to stop me though, as long as I have diamonds around to do it.

 

a couple things come to mind.

 

1. The trophies could have a different buff and still be a good thing for the studios that have them. For instance, instead of an extra movie per day, maybe just one per week and/or increased regeneration rate of film energy so that people could crank out 3 hour films in half the time.Want more? let a week slide and do the end of the week rollover trick.

 

2. less available ballots. Not as rare as a party ticket, mind you, but I noticed last night, looking at map after I was finished. There were 10 ballots shown on map and an equal number of missions. That's with 2 areas yet unlocked, so it could easily have been more than a dozen. Overkill IMO. That just makes it way too easy for a studio of 30 farming ballots, especially if some are throwing diamonds to refresh. They could literally spam ballots all day.

 

Since i have been back to the game, I have have 2 4th place finishes. Different stars but both were either before the trophies or just as they were introduced. Both had game generated titles. Sometimes with a custom title, you run the risk of voters going 'this person is trying too hard...fail' I try to not do that when voting if the cover is well put together.

 

In the end, I need to keep it fun, so I will do the custom titles and try to use creative ideas


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#31 TaraBing

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 16:15 PM

Hey Ei,

 

 

Discouraging for sure Amber.  It's like a different ceiling if your star isn't in a trophy holding studio. I will probably always do custom titles where I can, but what happened this week on one of my stars (documented in another post) certainly gives merit to sticking with the silly game-generated titles. Not going to stop me though, as long as I have diamonds around to do it.

 

a couple things come to mind.

 

1. The trophies could have a different buff and still be a good thing for the studios that have them. For instance, instead of an extra movie per day, maybe just one per week and/or increased regeneration rate of film energy so that people could crank out 3 hour films in half the time.Want more? let a week slide and do the end of the week rollover trick.

 

2. less available ballots. Not as rare as a party ticket, mind you, but I noticed last night, looking at map after I was finished. There were 10 ballots shown on map and an equal number of missions. That's with 2 areas yet unlocked, so it could easily have been more than a dozen. Overkill IMO. That just makes it way too easy for a studio of 30 farming ballots, especially if some are throwing diamonds to refresh. They could literally spam ballots all day.

 

Since i have been back to the game, I have have 2 4th place finishes. Different stars but both were either before the trophies or just as they were introduced. Both had game generated titles. Sometimes with a custom title, you run the risk of voters going 'this person is trying too hard...fail' I try to not do that when voting if the cover is well put together.

 

In the end, I need to keep it fun, so I will do the custom titles and try to use creative ideas

 

I like some of these ideas, at first I was thinking the one regarding a weekly +1 movie making session, doesn't fit the timing of the holding of the trophy, as duels happen daily and the trophy can come and go daily.  But it could still be done in the form of "you held a movie-trophy this week, you are allowed to make one extra movie" as a VOUCHER with expiration date of Sunday using the IN-Game Message system. ...similar to the way way Extra Energy is handled when "Redeem Later" is chosen. Cashing in an extra movie-making session would take you to the Film Shoot choices screen.

 

The refresh and farming for ballots thing is outside the scope of the trophies, although I do see your point on how having the trophies and extra movie-making sessions makes it more likely the cover will come up for vote more often.  That's obviously the idea of the trophy.

 

I think someone suggested elsewhere that the longer a trophy is held (consecutively) the higher the penalty becomes for holding it, but even something like that can be "gamed" for reset with supporting studios working together.

 

I'm not sure how the game devs fix this one, and I'm not sure if they need to. So BBA is harder to win for someone from a smaller studio.  From my perspective, this was always the case.  The game devs likely don't want to completely nerf the advantage, but leaving any kind of advantage still is an advantage for the studio that can hold on to two or more of these movie-making trophy things... so in the end, what does it really change?

 

Love the dialogue on this from everyone - especially the exchange on how we appear to argue similar points of view, and are actually in agreement from different perspectives... (smug)

 

 

-TB (flower)

 

.


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#32 Amberson

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 18:12 PM

I'm not sure how the game devs fix this one, and I'm not sure if they need to. So BBA is harder to win for someone from a smaller studio. From my perspective, this was always the case.


The difference is that before the introduction of the trophies, it was only hard(er). I would argue that now it is impossible. Furthermore it is also extremely hard to even get to the Top 10 now. I don't know if anyone has even managed to do it, if they didn't have some extra trophy exposure too.

Your own statistics from some time ago about the composition of the Top 10 before the trophies were a factor prove that players from smaller studios used to be more competitive in the past.

The game devs likely don't want to completely nerf the advantage, but leaving any kind of advantage still is an advantage for the studio that can hold on to two or more of these movie-making trophy things... so in the end, what does it really change?


Being in active studio whose members farm for ballot missions and vote for each other is already enough of an advantage. As is the ability to refresh the voting options for diamonds. Some might even say that the extra visibility your cover gets if you do the 21 possible weekly movies is an advantage in itself, because not everyone is able to make all those films.

So there are many layers of different advantages already integrated in to the game based on your own activity, diamond investments and the type of studio you're in. There's really no need to add another advantage that basically equals to a nuclear bomb that can easily destroy any kind of competition in the one part of the game that used to be more open for everyone.

I doubt that the developers wanted for the Top 10 of the BBAs to be comprised of 8 or 9 members from the same studio and thus discouraging most other players to care about the contest or put any effort in it... The 20% penalty hints otherwise. Unfortunately, the penalty is still very small and allows the few studios at the top to comfortably hold at least one if not two trophies for extended periods of time. The best studios are a magnet for the best and most active players from weaker studios, because they already have all the possible benefits in the form of trophies, best Temple rewards, maximum studio expansion etc. The influx of those players solidifies their dominant position and unless they implode from within because of some crucial players leaving the game or of an internal argument or whatever, they cannot lose it. And it in doesn't matter whether you're from a relatively strong studio in the Top 20 or a one that's 100th in the ranking, the very best studios will always play a league of their own that other studios can't compete with. That is why they are able to hold the trophies even in spite of the supposedly harsh penalty that's really not harsh at all since a single player with stats in the 10k range can basically decimate most other studios by themselves. And the top studios have multiple power players of this kind.

To sum up, the solution is really simple. Keep the +1 daily film the trophies provide so that they stay attractive for the studios. Do whatever you want with the penalty (increase it, decrease it or let it stay how it is - in the context of this discussion about the BBAs, I don't care). But get rid of the extra exposure.

Edited by Amberson, 14 September 2017 - 18:18 PM.

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#33 CaptC

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 19:36 PM

My argument has been that the extra exposure is a difference in kind. It changed the BBA from a competition which gave an advantage to numbers and friends regardless of level (ie - an active, full studio) into one where you had to be one of the top studios, powerful enough to actually hold the trophies.

 

In other words, it removed the ability of growing studios to coalesce around the BBA, and gave that ability to studios who were already "winning" on the glory lists.  It made keeping your growing studio together, just a little bit harder.

 

The fact that it also snowballs skills for the top few studios is almost irrelevant.  The extra exposure kills the ability of competitive studios to even form.


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#34 Analis

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 16:54 PM

The extra exposure kills the ability of competitive studios to even form.

 

So...

Most here seem to agree on that exact point.

Both on the positive and negative sides of that exposure.

I haven't heard one decent argument in favor of the exposure yet.

 

So how to get that point across to the devs?  :happy: 


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#35 Eileendover

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 20:07 PM

Type in German? ;)

 

To CaptC's point. I think you are right. I think this offset the balance from what it was. Perhaps the solution is in something new that will pull it back or in another direction. What that would be, I don't know.

 

In the meantime, I'm determined to crack this nut


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#36 CaptC

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:23 AM

One of the players in Nutaku has been submitting regular bug reports, listing the movie trophy's exposure increase as a bug.


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#37 Eileendover

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 02:06 AM

Like the bugs in Starship Troopers?


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#38 CaitlinCumgusher

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 03:19 AM

I never knew of this, and just looked at all the rankings to see what it was about, so it seems if I put in the effort trying to make some of my covers more memorable, like with quite a few I would spend diamonds changing hair, backgrounds etc, then trying to pick clothes to match titles, and even a few writing my own titles, and honestly thinking everyone had a equal chance in the voting, but it now seems like its a waste of effort diamonds and money


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#39 Eileendover

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 15:26 PM

It's getting tougher to even crack the top 20 from a smaller studio where members are not very interested in film covers. I have had a couple reach 4th at finish and some that were in 1st for a day or 2. the later always plummet the last couple days. Even if friends and studio mates vote you, there's not enough of them and the odds get slimmer as the contest nears its end. Even fantastic submissions can get pushed out by the shear number of people who can capitalize on the visibility bonuses and /or have diamonds to spend on refreshing ballots.

 

One of the saddest parts to me is that with the changes in fonts recently, it's drastically increased the amount of completely junk titles that wind up with a better placing than ones people put thought and effort into. People won't even spend a few notes to make their title readable. Why should they when they will get votes anyway?


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#40 Amberson

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 17:33 PM

I haven't reached Top 20 for weeks now. The best I got was to the 30s. Not that it matters since it's the same reward between 11th and 100th. But last week and the week before I actually placed below 100th (104th + 202nd) which didn't really happen to me before. Either my cover flopped right on the first day a couple of times or it reached the Top 100.

This week, I'll finish 53th. And if you look at the Top 10 right now, a couple of hours before the deadline, there are still 9 players from The Dirty Thirty who had two trophies the whole previous week. Not even Bros and Hoes with one trophy who dominated the previous weeks can compete with that. And next week it's going to be the same, because The Dirty Thirty still possess those two trophies. The only change you'll see is more covers from Little Devils at the top, because they also had two trophies for most if not the whole week.

Edited by Amberson, 17 September 2017 - 17:33 PM.

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