29 replies to this topic

[CaptC]

As a way to reduce the stagnation of studios just sitting on the same trophies for long periods of time, a colleague of mine, PinkySlapalot, suggested that trophies decay in their effectiveness or get nastier in their penalties.

 

1) For each day a studio holds a trophy, that trophy's fight penalty gets worse (maybe 1%), or

2) For each day a studio holds a trophy, that trophy's advantage decreases (perhaps one less energy, one less courage), or

3) both

 

For example:

 

Courage trophies stay the same, but their fight penalty is 7% on day 1, 8% on day 2, etc.

Movie trophies are always +1 movie, but their fight penalty is 20% day 1, 21% day 2, etc.

Energy trophies are always a 10% fight penalty, but gain 20 energy day 1, 19 energy day 2, etc.

 

Any time a trophy changes hands, it's benefits and penalties get reset so it behaves as we currently expect on the first day.

 

The idea is you can't just sit on your trophies. You have to dynamically cycle them in order to keep them effective.

[mel25]

Yes, I would agree with this idea , it would allow other Studios to challenge for higher rankings. 

[Eileendover]

I'm relatively new to the trophy thing. Though I played a star before to around level 100, I was alone in my own studio and only did studio fights when attacked. I don't remember. I may have actually won one of them, lol. This time around, being in a studio with others, I was surprised to find out that trophies had any attributes, good or bad. My thought is that getting one should be enough of an honor and also enough motivation for another studio to come after it. I think there should be a display showing all of the trophies the studio ever earned, but that's another subject of it's own.

 

To the end of trophies being enough incentive on their own and others having a chance at them, I would think the answer would lie in giving players a way to level faster, to a certain point, and then, through diminishing returns, hit a slow down point where others behind them will catch up.

[CaptC]

The reality is that at the top, two hardworking, skilled, and likely lucky studios get to sit on the energy trophies for the game, and everyone else gets to watch in envy. The extra energy means those studios have a snowballing advantage.

 

Any mechanism that lets players level faster, will also be used by those studios and their players, and the game stays static. (I am not arguing against giving players faster leveling, I am just saying that will not produce a more dynamic game.)

 

It is not that hard to cycle trophies, unless a studio is so dominant they have a hard time giving trophies away. But cycling trophies means that other, non-dominant studios get to keep them for a short while - which is a great deal longer than they get to hold them now.

[Eileendover]

Is there even any level cap? If not, then there you go. I mean I know there are those now in the 300's. When I get to 250-300, will they be like 500? If that's the case, then yes, the only way to give anyone else a shot is to have some sort of equalizer and it still won't be easy.

 

An odd semi-related thought I had is what if studio battles took place from high level to lowest instead of low to high like it is right now? To me , it seems like it would give the underdogs a better chance. If they can manage to take out Goliath with some of their higher levels, then the lower ones would have a chance of cleaning up. As is, we feed the lowbies into the wood chipper feet first and hope we have enough left to hang. It could make the low level's fight much more relevant

[CaptC]

My studio goes for depth from top to bottom.  We started relatively late, and until a recent recruit, we have had to use quantity over quality.  The other competitive studios have top individual players tougher than our top player, but we generally can hit them with two or three players and wear them down or cake them to death.

 

Far from being cannon fodder, our "lowbie" players are integral to studio success.  If they don't get us a lead going into the cake throwers, we are going to lose.

[Analis]

There have been quite a few theories and suggestions about trophies lately. So I'm not sure where best to post this. But they all without change complicate things further. Right now most people don't even know how trophies work. Just scan the forum: the remarks you sometimes read often do not even make sense - mostly when written by people without actual hands-on experience. That's not a slight, just a given. And you can't blame people for it. But making things MORE complicated by adding new trophies, giving them changing abilities... etc. etc. All due respect for the often VERY smart suggestions, but most people in this game will simply not KNOW or understand. Especially when these new/altered trophies would want to be issued to help out LESS strong studios, i.e. the ones where people generally have LESS experience or knowledge of the game... that just doesn't sound right. It doesn't make sense to complicate the game to help out younger, less experienced players and studios. If you want to make things more fair/balanced/seethrough... keep it simple?

 

My suggestion: ADD more of the SAME trophies.

It will make the fights more interesting, especially in the sub-top.

AND it will eliminate the reason for bitching about trophy-keepers.

[TaraBing]

My studio had a trophy for one day.  Another for two hours.  And that's about the extent of my personal knowledge about trophies.

 

I speak from nearly zero-experience when I say, how can I bitch about it, because I know I am too ignorant to not know of what I speak... 

 

 

-TB

[CaptC]

There is an old chess axiom: "When you are ahead, simplify. When you are behind, complicate."

 

Similarly, those who are ahead in a game don't want anything to change, while those who are behind often want change to make it easier to catch up.

 

I sympathize with both views from time to time, depending upon the circumstances of the game. If the game mechanics allow or even encourage those who are behind to catch up, then I don't need to see more complications.  The game is already well balanced, and the answer to the complaints of those who are behind is quite appropriately, "Learn the game, don't try to change it".  (Mario Kart messes with the leader, gives extra boosts to those behind, and it's quite well balanced as a result. If you consistently lose at Mario Kart, it's not the game, it's you.)

 

If, on the other hand, the game mechanics give those in front a significant or even unbeatable advantage, I side with the players asking for changes. Games which snowball are simply less fun, they are NOT balanced, and it often doesn't matter how good you are if the game is rigged to favor the person or team who is in front.

 

I claim BBE is unbalanced, and snowballs. (If your studio consistently loses in studio fights, it's because you haven't gotten good enough to wangle an invite from the top couple of studios, with all the energy advantages.)

 

I want to add features to disrupt that tendency. You may not agree that BBE snowballs, or you may not agree that the proposed features adequately address the problem. Or, I suppose, we may not agree that unbalanced is even a problem.  

 

But mere "more of the same" doesn't change the underlying problem, it merely changes how many people get to snowball. Three un-catchable studios is generally no better than two un-catchable studios.

 

As to whether or not the players will understand the new balancing features: *shrug* Not even a problem. The smart ones WILL get it, and that's what you care about. Because the smart ones also know when there is no balance. If playing an unbalanced game is not appealing to them, they simply go elsewhere.

[Analis]

It's easy to say that people who are "ahead" in the game want nothing to change.

We can disagree on the means, but you know we both agree that there's room for improvement.

 

In my eyes the main problems with some of BBE's inbalances come from the fact that the game hasn't been designed from the start with a correct "inflation" in mind. Take for instance the success rewards for "high" successes. I've got almost 500.000 glory, so I'm no stranger to dueling, but I'm not even close to the goal of shooting off 200.000 missiles. If I'd get there, the awesome amazing price of 27.906 notes awaits me. This may have sounded like a lot when the game was developed, but it's quite ridiculous now (not even the worth of one pack of missiles). The game has "inflated" but the rewards usually haven't followed - and you see the same issue with the trophies. The number of trophies has become ridiculously out of ratio opposed to the number of existing studios. So while it may be long overdue: before making stuff even more complicated, like with changing penalties etc., perhaps stuff can first be made more widely available? Baby steps.

 

 

PS: snowballing is quite an unfortunate choice of words in a game like this, Capt.

Especially in this context, as it implies passing on or returning a certain received item...

While with trophies it seems the intention is to just try and swallow them up.

[Donatela]

Way to much text btw ... but it feels like stealing from the selected few to keep the masses happy  ?

Didn’t they do that in the dark ages as a form of crowed control  ? Burn a couple on the stake as Sunday afternoon entertainment  ?

 

 

To keep 5 trophies in this game you need at least   :

1> 100% expansion. A good deal of notes and diamonds went there to achieve it. Items players provide.

2> Have a solid crew of 30. Good active players aren’t easy to find. A lot of work goes in there to recruit them and keep them.

3> Diamonds. We have several players that buy on a regular basis. Less fortune studios / players can cry about that all they want but that’s the stuff that keeps BBE going. So punishing us (and studio's like us) for using diamonds to stay on top ... once the cash flow stops let’s see how long this game keeps making updates. Free to play as long as other ppl keeps buying.

4> Time. Gaining levels, making movies, doing studio stuff etc. takes time. See a lot of regulars online all the time. For me 10 hours is nothing. No I’m not jobless ... mobile goes with me on the job so i can play while I’m not at home.

5> Having the best toon/char/avatar possible. Leveling, hunting down best items, gathering glory etc. cost time. Best refinements on new items cost diamonds (Misty is like Robin Hood these days ... steals from the rich)

 

I probably left out a whole bunch of stuff ... but you get the idea.

 

 

So coming up with a half-cocked idea to change trophies into a cardboards of milk that goes sour on you ... you think that’s the solution ? 

Like i mentioned ealier ... our studio is filled with ppl that wants to win. They put in a lot of time, money , effort so they can be the best in movies, duels , studio fights. We are high up in temple , personal ranking and studio ranking.

On these ranking lists we are surrounded by studios and players that do pretty much the same. Put in maximum effort to stay on top (instead of whining about others in public).

I say good plan to punish them for that ... And for what ? So studio's that has players that login once a week to do 2 movies can have a shot at the tile ?!?

 

If you want to do something with trophies anyway !? I say ... reset them every 1st of the month ... Wipe the slate clean so everyone needs to start fresh and lesser ones have a equal change on winning one of them. 

[Donatela]

Btw CAPTC ... You obviously have extended knowledge of the game ... Good to have you as a moderator sir.

 

Got just one little question / remark or what ever you call it. 

When i post ... i post from the point of view as a producer of a particular studio right ?!? . I post in favor of my studio, his members.

How is this for you ? With 2 hats on ... i mean ; you are moderator on the forum but also post as a player (Boss of Busty spiderbabes, Producer of Abusement park) 

 

I always had the funny idea that moderators supposed to be neutral .

Don’t get me wrong not starting a fight or summing but call me old fashion in this.

I hear the studio boss talking when he has his moderator suit on. Doing what I do … post in favor of his studio.

I mean that’s your God-given right but doesn’t add up for me personal. 

 

No idea how the both studio’s you are in are ranked (don’t play Nu or UK1) but I guess your replies/post would be different if your studio is 1^st, 2^nd or let’s say 12^th on the ranking list.

 

To make a short story long … Call me curious but why the choice of not having 2 accounts on this forum ?

One account for moderator gig and other for the boss/producer/player in you?  

[CaptC]

PS: snowballing is quite an unfortunate choice of words in a game like this, Capt.

Especially in this context, as it implies passing on or returning a certain received item...

While with trophies it seems the intention is to just try and swallow them up.

 

You may not know me all that well, Analis, if you think that choice of words was not deliberate.  And I like your 'extensions' to the metaphor.  LOL

[CaptC]

I am sorry for this digression, but I feel I must address it.

 

Btw CAPTC ... You obviously have extended knowledge of the game ... Good to have you as a moderator sir.

 

Got just one little question / remark or what ever you call it. 

When i post ... i post from the point of view as a producer of a particular studio right ?!? . I post in favor of my studio, his members.

How is this for you ? With 2 hats on ... i mean ; you are moderator on the forum but also post as a player (Boss of Busty spiderbabes, Producer of Abusement park) 

 

I always had the funny idea that moderators supposed to be neutral .

Don’t get me wrong not starting a fight or summing but call me old fashion in this.

I hear the studio boss talking when he has his moderator suit on. Doing what I do … post in favor of his studio.

I mean that’s your God-given right but doesn’t add up for me personal. 

 

No idea how the both studio’s you are in are ranked (don’t play Nu or UK1) but I guess your replies/post would be different if your studio is 1^st, 2^nd or let’s say 12^th on the ranking list.

 

To make a short story long … Call me curious but why the choice of not having 2 accounts on this forum ?

One account for moderator gig and other for the boss/producer/player in you?  

 

*shrug*.  Never thought of it until now. Not sure I like the idea, either. My life is complicated enough, without making distinctions that make no difference.

 

I have ZERO power over the direction of the game. I am clearing spam and spam users, approving new posters, and maintaining the forums, only. I am not part of any design team. I asked if there would be restrictions regarding about what I could post during the interview process, and was told that I should stay professional. (They did know me well enough to suggest I avoid excessive flirting.  ) I think I am doing that.

 

In other words, don't think that because this account posts in orange text, that I have any more actual input than than anyone else.

 

Suggestions I make are just that, suggestions. And if you check, most of the suggestions I make are about ease of use, and balancing the game. I play in two very high level studios (currently 2nd on Nutaku, 3rd on UK1.) Note that balancing the game tends to work a bit against the absolute best for my studios, because we are already on top, rolling downhill and picking up more snow.

 

I cannot think of any suggestion I have made purely for the benefit of my own studio. But while I do not fault you for worrying that I may abuse my awesome powers for personal or studio gain, I think the concern is overblown, because I don't have any awesome powers.  

 

Regardless, I am aware that the orange text tends to end conversations. I am accordingly refraining from jumping into quite a few conversations, where I otherwise would have in the past. But surely you do not expect me to not talk about my OWN suggestions?

 

Lastly - If being a moderator means I cannot be passionate about the game in this forum... then I will stop being a moderator. Simple as that.

 

I would now like to return to talking about the merits of the original proposal, rather than my posting habits. Thanks.

[CaptC]

 

If you want to do something with trophies anyway !? I say ... reset them every 1st of the month ... Wipe the slate clean so everyone needs to start fresh and lesser ones have a equal change on winning one of them. 

 

And here is the most radical idea proposed yet!  I would actually be OK with this, too.

 

Note that I am not proposing disadvantages for trophies because I am mad at studios that got to the top through hard work, spending diamonds, and possibly a little luck. Been there, doing that.

 

I am suggesting that the game is not balanced, that being one of the top two or three studios gives a huge structural advantage. The only thing I have ever seen defeat a top three studio is implosion from social dynamics within the studio. Sitting around waiting for another studio to socially disintegrate is NOT a competitive game. So I am merely trying to find mechanisms that give newbie studios, who are also willing to put in the work and diamonds, a chance to catch up to the current leaders *via game mechanics*.

 

I make no apologies for proposing game mechanics that subtly penalize being in front. Almost all well balanced games have those kinds of mechanics, precisely to prevent snowballing effects.

[Analis]

Stop flirting with Dona, you tease...

 

I would now like to return to talking about the merits of the original proposal, rather than my posting habits. Thanks.

 

"For each day a studio holds a trophy, that trophy's fight penalty gets worse (maybe 1%)"

Smaller studios can barely hold on to one trophy now - let alone if its penalty would get worse. This way the little ones will always only have use of them for (part of) a day before they lose it. The same has happened right now with the Film Trophies: small studios just can't carry that penalty for a meaningful length of time. Now if only there were more of the already existing trophies, so the fights would be spread out more evenly... Then some of the little ones might just luck out and hold on to a trophy a little longer, even with this cascade-penalty. But it can only have use if there are more. Because the bigger studios are pretty used to winning one out of three, losing one out of three, winning one out of three again. Or four. Or five if it's Bros and Hoes. Woot woot.

It could perhaps make for more interesting fights. For the top 10.

 

"For each day a studio holds a trophy, that trophy's advantage decreases (perhaps one less energy, one less courage)"

If your studio fights daily... That's not an issue. Win some, lose some... Trophies get switched all the time in the top 10. Most don't even stay in one studio for longer than a day or two: they only get swapped around. The only actually affected studios would be those that can actually keep holding on to the same exact trophies time and again. In essence: only the strongest one(s). Who then get zero extra energy or courage over time, but cannot get rid of those trophies because they are too strong and have no natural loss of trophies. Unless they force themselves to sell off their worthless trophies for a shitload of diamonds. That seems a little unfair? Even with the cascade-penalty it would take weeks for the strongest studios to get on their feet again. While people would STILL be fighting over the same limited amount of trophies. Well... within the top 10 of course.

 

 

This might make fights perhaps a little more entertaining.

But it's still overly complicated and only beneficial to subtop studios.

The top ànd the bottom get to stand by and watch.

[CaptC]

I see it usually go in phases, Analis.  On NU1, when we had three more or less evenly powerful studios contending with each other, trophies swapped all the time. In fact, the top three were generally only attacking each other, because that's where the good trophies were.  In that situation, you have a competitive game - and the fact that there is little penalty being accrued is fine. It's already competitive.

 

But then the 3rd place studio blew up. The top two studios (one of them mine) got the lion's share of the good personnel.  And now we are two - the third place studio cannot defeat either of the top two, even if third has no trophies, and the top two have full trophy loads. Worse, the top two studios are in such an even competitive balance, we are very careful about attacking each other, generally taking safe attacks against studios below us. 

 

So on Nutaku right now, the trophies the top two studios are holding... basically just sit there.  This is a non-competitive situation -- and in this situation, the proposed penalties will start to bite.

 

The beauty of PinkySlapalot's proposal, is that the penalties adjust themselves automatically to the game situation. If it is dynamic, everyone can beat everyone, trophies are changing hands all the time... little or no penalty to anyone.  If it is static, because one or two studios are overpoweringly dominant, the penalties start to increase - and the chances of the game becoming dynamic improve.

[Analis]

The beauty of PinkySlapalot's proposal, is that the penalties adjust themselves automatically to the game situation. If it is dynamic, everyone can beat everyone, trophies are changing hands all the time... little or no penalty to anyone.  If it is static, because one or two studios are overpoweringly dominant, the penalties start to increase - and the chances of the game becoming dynamic improve.

 

Sounds exciting.

Top 4 wears the green shirts.

https://tinyurl.com/ycrf7rcr

Sorry but I really don't see the fun of it.

Everyone-s-a-winner-in-the-top-10?

[Eileendover]

How about a mine trophy that explodes after a random amount of studio fights from 1-10 and takes out one other trophy from both studios when it goes off? It would be of no consequence to the holder if they have no other trophies. It would need to be immune to being dropped by the studio so that eventually, through being attacked, it will go off at some point. Just for fun,disguise them as another type of trophy when viewed by another studio.

 

[Amberson]

PS: snowballing is quite an unfortunate choice of words in a game like this, Capt.
Especially in this context, as it implies passing on or returning a certain received item...
While with trophies it seems the intention is to just try and swallow them up.

You may not know me all that well, Analis, if you think that choice of words was not deliberate.  And I like your 'extensions' to the metaphor.  LOL

Lol, here I was innocently thinking at first that the metaphor is about a snowball rolling down the hill and gaining more mass as it moves... It made sense to use this comparison in the context of the discussion, but now I see that you're talking about THAT kind of snowballing.